Interviewer: Good afternoon, sifu. Thank you for agreeing to this interview. May I ask you about the Wooden Man, the Wooden Dummy please?
Sifu: Of course, yes. Ask away.
Interviewer: We know that Wing Chun Kuen Gung Fu has very few forms, three fist forms and the Wooden Man form, the Look Dim Boon Kwan, the staff, and the Yee Jee Yum Yeung Dit Ming Dao or double knives. Can you explain where the Wooden Man form fits in?
Sifu: Sure. There are a number of styles of gung fu that make use of training devices constructed from poles. The term for the Wooden Man is Mook Yan Jong you see. Jong means a post stuck into the ground. The Wooden Man of Wing Chun, which is very widely known these days, is probably best known of all these dummies. It is used to ensure the student has correct structures and angles, to achieve flow and to develop power. The student can use the dummy to practice when they don’t have a training partner. Along with your imagination it can simulate an attacker. In the Hong Kong system they generally teach the dummy in three parts. One part is taught with each hand form. In our school we teach the dummy after the student is well versed in the three hand forms.
Interviewer: So what does the full term Mook Yan Jong mean, sifu?
Sifu: It simply means the post used as a dummy.
Interviewer: And you say there are other styles that use training dummies?
Sifu: Yes. The old traditional Sil Lum did and Choy Li Fut is famous for having quite a few different types of training dummies. Ba Qua uses training posts too.
Interviewer: What’s the history of the Wooden Man, sifu?
Sifu: It probably began as a post mounted in loose earth in a temple, being tamped down every so often as use rendered it too mobile. I hear that on the Red Boats they used a mast with holes drilled in it. And, they used the wall mounted bamboo dummy. When Yip Man migrated to Hong Kong he asked a carpenter to devise the hanging cross bars we see so often today. In Gwangjo they devised a number of alternative mounting mechanisms. Springs, tripods and stands. All allowed the Wooden Man to move slightly to absorb the shock the student imparted to it.
Interviewer: I see. Do we have other dummies, sifu?
Sifu: Yes, in fact we do. Bamboo Dummy and Pole Dummy.
Interviewer: I see. And you trained Wing Chun from the mid 1960s didn’t you? Whilst Yip Man was still alive?
Sifu: Yes. Yip died in 1972. I’d been training about seven or eight years then. Nowadays it seems that a knowledge of the Plum Flower Posts – Mui Fa Jong, the kicking Dummy and the Pole Dummy gradually leaked out of the Mainland over the last maybe twenty years or so that some different Yip Man lineage groups are using them. Or variants of them, anyway.
Interviewer: Are they essential?
Sifu: Not really. Not in my view. They may assist training and provide novelty. But, the system of Wing Chun is quite simple. There’s no need to elaborate it in, my view.
The pole dummy can be useful.
Interviewer: I’ve heard of a Knife Dummy. Can you tell us about that?
Sifu: I’ve never heard of that. I can’t imagine how that’d work – metal against wood. It wouldn’t last long.
Interviewer: How essential is the Wooden Man form, sifu?
Sifu: Interesting question! Actually I believe you can learn outstanding Wing Chun without learning the Wooden Man, to be honest. If you work regularly with partners and you learn all the techniques in the Yuen Kay San Wooden Man form then I believe that actually you don’t need to learn it! The Yip version of Wing Chun really doesn’t have any techniques in their form that aren’t in the hand forms. However, it is a useful training aid if you are without training partners. For some time I didn’t teach anyone Wing Chun. I’d decided to give up teaching it. During that time I trained with the Wooden Man as well as basics and forms.
Interviewer: I’m very glad you decided to teach Wing Chun again, sifu! How did this come about?
Sifu: I’d resolved to stop teaching and just train myself, to leave behind the increasingly zany modern martial arts scene. Well my father-in-law in South Africa died suddenly and naturally unexpectedly, leaving his widow, my mother-in-law without adequate support. They’d migrated from Zimbabwe rather than be involved in the corruption of the evil tyrant Mugabe’s regime, you see. My father-in-law refused to pay bribes to obtain work. So, he had to work very hard in South Africa, having lost most of their assets when they migrated. Mugabe wouldn’t let anyone take anything out of Zimbabwe, you see. Cutting a long story short, my wife and I suddenly had to support her mother without adequate funds to do so. The only way I could see to do this was to open a gwoon again. However, ironically, it didn’t help! Times and the culture had changed. Martial arts weren’t as popular as a pursuit than previously, there was far more competition from activities that didn’t even exist in my day for people’s leisure time and interest. I ended up making a loss or only breaking even for many years. It was only when I was fortunate enough to win a better job that we could stop borrowing money to support the mother-in-law and do so from our earnings. Fate pushed me back into teaching Wing Chun, though, you see?
Interviewer: I’m sure your mother-in-law was thankful you did! Does she still live in South Africa?
Sifu: First, yes, she was very grateful. We were unable to arrange for her to migrate and come live with us. Maybe we should have hired a people smuggler and put the poor lady on a people smuggling boat as the quickest and surest option into Australia now, I guess. Certainly the fastest growing most popular path, eh? (Laughs). Second, no, she is no longer alive; regrettably she passed into her next life last year.
Interviewer: A sad story. Occasionally a student asks about buying a dummy. What do you advise sifu?
Sifu: I have yet, in all my years, to see a commercially made dummy that incorporates the correct dimensions. So, it’s best to have your own made. It should be made to your dimensions anyway – fitted to you.
Interviewer: Is that costly?
Sifu: It depends on your attitude and disposable cash. It’s best by far to get the right dimensions. Yes, it can be expensive – but not necessarily more than a store bought “off the rack” dummy.
Interviewer: When can a student buy a Wooden Man?
Sifu: It would usually not be of benefit before training for about a year into training - at least. I’d not recommend it before my students reach intermediate standard. But other systems do things differently. That’s their business.
Interviewer: What are the key features of the Wooden Man, sifu?
Sifu: I think the principles of Wing Chun are well illustrated on the Wooden Man. They need to be kept in mind. Of course they permeate the whole art so it isn’t just the Wooden Man. It has eight sections, and each section is said to stress different things. Not bashing onto it is important. The Wooden Man is not meant to be slammed into. Our art is not Hung Gar or karate, so striking the dummy with external muscular power will destroy your Wing Chun skills altogether. So if you see anyone bashing into the Wooden Man you can rest completely assured they have no clue what they’re doing!
Interviewer: The Yip Man Wooden Man and the Yuen Kay San Wooden Man forms are quite different aren’t they?
Sifu: Oh yes, very much so! Very different!
Interviewer: You teach your students both forms though, do you?
Sifu: Because the Yip Man form is very simple I do actually teach that first. Yes. I teach seniors both. I’ll teach the Hong Kong version to Intermediate level students if they wish to learn it. But the Yuen Kay San version can only be taught to Seniors. Once the students have learnt the Yuen Kay San Wooden Man form they can forget the Yip Man form.
Interviewer: I see. Can you explain why the two versions, Yip Man’s and Yuen Kay San’s are so different, sifu?
Sifu: Yes, it’s simple. Sifu Sum Num told me. Yip Man didn’t learn the weapons or today’s dummy form in China. Yip Man himself said he devised the Hong Kong version of the Wooden Man form from the version taught to him by his sifu, Ng Chung So. He initially developed a simpler version then expanded it to include some kicks. Yip Man always wanted to learn Yuen Kay San’s Wooden Man form. But, because he wasn’t a student of Yuen Kay San, he couldn’t learn it. Yuen Kay San’s version was handed down from his teachers, Fok Bo Cheung and Fung Siu Ching. Both taught the very same form as each other, just as they taught the same Wing Chun - according to Sifu Sum Num who was told this by Yuen Kay San.
Interviewer: The two lineages didn’t interact?
Sifu: Not in the sense of doing much more than chatting at the restaurant. Yuen Kay San knew and dined with Ng Chung So, Yip’s sifu, and Yip along with other Wing Chun practitioners, for example. Sifu Sum Num knew Yip well but they never trained together. The only exception to interaction in training was when Yip Man’s father asked Yuen Kay San’s father would Yuen Kay San teach Yip some chi sau. Yuen Kay San did teach him some. But by no means all he knew. What he taught was, however, sufficient to enable Yip to defeat all his seniors. Yip Man’s gung fu descended from Leung Jan who taught a different version of his art to Chan Wah Sun, as we know. Chan Wah Sun taught Ng Chung So and Ng Chung So taught Yip Man. Leung Jan, as we also know, was a student of Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai. Yuen Kay San’s gung fu descended from Wong Wah Bo and Dai Fa Mien Kam through Fok Bo Cheung and Fung Siu Ching. There was no interaction in the sense of either art influencing the other. Yuen Kay San Wing Chun and the Koo Lo of the Fung family (but not the several other versions) as taught by Leung Jan to Wong Wah Sam, his last disciple, are very similar to each other and distinct from other versions of Wing Chun.
Interviewer: Does Koo Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun have a Wooden Man form?
Sifu: Not as such, no. They do their twelve sik and extensions on the Jong as they learn them.
Interviewer: I see. What’s the best way to employ the Wooden Man, sifu?
Sifu: You need guidance from a sifu because the Wooden Man doesn’t move like a person, so sometimes you have to move in a way you wouldn’t in a fight - but practising your techniques on the Wooden Man can be very useful. I think rather than only train the form, train each segment or a few techniques many times over. I like the Koo Lo model myself. Application practice as opposed to a form. I think in fact that’s the optimal way to train on the Wooden Man. Tradition imposes forms on us, though.
Interviewer: What are the eight sections of the Yip Man Wooden Man form, sifu?
Sifu: They are not discretely named as such. Understand that just as with the hand forms and the weapons forms, there is enormous variation across the Yip Man lineages. One would’ve thought that if there was to be an analogue to the Wooden Man of the empty hand forms that the sections would have mirrored Siu Lien Tau, Chum Kiu and Biu Jee with Wooden man sections – but no, they don’t. However, the usual version, the orthodox version if you like, has eight sections. For example, the first section contains these techniques: Left and right versions of til sau or biu sau, ko jeung, chang dai jeung, man geng sau, bong sau, tan sau, kwun sau and seung gan sau with juening and stepping. The emphasis is on footwork. The sections have been highlighted for ease of teaching.
Interviewer: As Yip Man devised his Wooden Man form, have you ever thought of devising a form for the dummy, sifu?
Sifu: That’s an interesting question. Normally one doesn’t change forms taught by your sifu. However, I must say I’m puzzled that some leading names in Wing Chun have decidedly done that to varying degrees – or simply made up material they weren’t actually taught to be frank. As a senior sifu with over forty years learning the art my – what would we say? – “right”? to develop a Wooden Man form would be at least equivalent to that of many, if not all others, living today. There’s a bit of a glitch, however. I vowed to pass down the true art to people of noble character. So how can I do that if I change it? On the other hand, whilst I wouldn’t change the Yuen Kay San Wooden Man form (or any other aspect of Yuen Kay San Wing Chun) I have often thought that there is a lot of unnecessary redundancy in the Yip Man Wooden Man form and as an introductory tool to teaching Wooden Man usage I have thought of devising a simpler form along those lines. But who has the time for that? (Laughs). I have a lot of other far more salient priorities! I think simply training our sik and basics on the Wooden Man will suffice, to be frank.
Interviewer: Can I ask you, sifu, are there kuen kuit for the Wooden man form?
Sifu: Mook Yan Jong Kuit? Yes, there are, eight. They are: (i) Power comes from your centre and goes to the centre of the Wooden Man; (ii) Move like fish swimming around rocks; (iii) When changing steps stay close to the Wooden Man; (iv) Your arm must stick to the arm of the Wooden Man when moving; (v) Explosive release of power and relaxed control are always in your hands; (vi) Release power into the Wooden Man with relaxation and the whole body; (vii) Practice movements individually many times; and, Practice develops correct release of power.
Interviewer: Well, thank you for a very interesting interview, sifu.
Sifu: my pleasure!